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 Post subject: G-cabbed rigid Eights
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:05 pm 
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G-cabbed (Albion and Bathgate and maybe Wolverhampton ) eight wheelers and some other recent discoveries.

Those in the southern hemisphere probably need no reminding, but this is new to me. Leyland Australia marketed some rigid eights that were not catalogued elsewhere, both models featuring the tilting G-cab built at Bathgate from 1972 and developed from the earlier GX that made its 1964 debut on the BMC FJ. There was a Reiver 8 with a 411 engine, a follow-on from the Cameronian CA81 with long–door LAD Cab and 401 which had mainly sold in Australia (two plus an earlier ‘special Reiver’ were registered in the UK prior obviously to minimum power/weight ratios in the C&U regulations from 1972) and a Leyland Harrier, an 8 wheel development of the Mastiff, I guess with a frame as on the Guy Big J8, but fitted with a Perkins V8:640. Surely George Harriman would have beamed brightly down from the skies when that one was announced.

With relation to a previous post of mine there were three Scammell Trunker 1 tractors built, all had the 6HLX engine, just behind the cab, and they went as a batch with Scammell tank trailers to Shell Mex-BP: despite the London registrations presumably obtained by the office staff at Shell House on the south bank of the Thames they worked in Scotland and were well received by the drivers. There is one picture in CCMV of a pre-delivery example with an Octopus style bumper, apparently that made the tanker outfit over-length and they entered service without front bumpers, just like the basic Albion CH3. From 1959-85 the Reiver range was the top selling three axle rigid in the UK.

There’s an interesting online history of Guy Motors, it is however rather light in the later years and does not cover the post 1966 development of the Big J, rather confuses the situation with the Victory Trambus, Warrior Trambus and Victory J especially when it comes to the double-decker variants, and an employee’s account of Guy confuses the Marathon and the Landtrain perhaps because both arrived at Fallings Park at the same time, good use is made of official pictures however, I was especially pleased to see an Arab LUF chassis, this carried the engine in a higher section of frame, presumably to meet UK C&U ground-clearance rules. It is a more complicated frame than the directly competitive Reliance and Tiger Cub, which perhaps explains Bob Kell’s account of it (buses Extra 58) in Northern General Transport service as more flexible that the Preston or Southall alternatives: it seems to be nearly as lightly constructed as the Aberdonian.

Another error is that it claims the Warrior LUF had a 5HLW as standard, that was the Arab LUF; Warrior LUFs either had Meadows or AEC engines; the preserved Burlingham Seagull bodied example new as a Guy Demonstrator had a Meadows 330 when demonstrating and in its early years with Dodds of Troon, they replaced it with an AEC AH410 on first re-certification. I gather the other surviving UK Warrior LUF, the one which appeared as a United Automobile Services bus in episodes of the Heartbeat TV series, which has a Mulliner bus body and was new to a mental hospital in Kent, still has the 4-cylinder Meadows unit. Tilling Stevens, Rowe (who produced the horizontal variant of the Meadows 330 in a similar way to Guy’s development of the Gardner HLW series) and Rutland also used the unit, but to no great sales performance. There was a six-cylinder version of 500 cu in, this is only known to me in two applications, the Whickham Railbuses for British Railways and the sole Seddon XX, a 36ft chassis with high frame and rear horizontal T-drive engine which Geoffrey Hillditch says was exported to Cyprus in 1960. After that Seddon used arabic rather than roman numerals.

Really oddly it claims that the Guy Conquest was a new Guy PSV model under Jaguar ownership: This was of course the badge-engineered Daimler Roadliner. Artists impressions from the 1964 brochure illustrate it. Then again like Leyland with the 1961 Lowlander Brochure, which came in Albion and Leyland Versions, the 1964 Daimler Roadliner brochure was also printed in a Guy Conquest version. I think that the one Roadliner exported to Spain and the batch of eight Jonckheere B47D examples sold in 1967 to SNCV in Belgium were the sum total branded as Guys. Although it mentions the UFE Victory it does not mention the 20 (IIRR) ‘Daimler CVU6LX’ exported to Carris of Lisbon, which were actually Guy Victories; by that time Jaguar were as adept as BMC and Rootes at badge-engineering.

Stephen Allcroft
Cardross
Scotland


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:33 am 
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Location: Mount Maunganui, New Zealand
The profile of the Guy Arab LUF chassis followed the same profile as that for the Guy UF. I have attached scans of the pertinent brochure pages for each.

I suspect that the total Arab UF and LUF build was quite small. As far as I know, just two Arab UF chassis made it to Australia, and none to New Zealand. So it was well behind even the Daimler Freeline.

Engine options for the Warrior LUF seem to have varied over time. An undated brochure in my possession shows a choice between the AEC AH470 and the Gardner 5HLW. Possibly the Meadows 4HDC330 had been withdrawn by the time this brochure was published. The Commercial Motor 19560831 introductory article mentioned only the 4HDC330. The Meadows 6HDC500 was the standard fitting on the initial version of the Victory UF.

I am not sure exactly when the Victory Trambus was discontinued in favour of the Victory J-Type. The Warrior J-Type and Warrior J-Type Trambus, both with AEC AV505 engine, were announced in Commercial Motor 19680913. So I should imagine that the Victory J-Type appeared some time after that. Whether it was coincident with the discontinuation of the AEC Kudu and the vertical-engined Worldmaster is unknown. Anyway, the vertical-engined Worldmaster, developed before the Kudu, was largely suppressed in favour of the latter.

Cheers,


Attachments:
Guy Conquest p.01.jpg
Guy Conquest p.01.jpg [ 953.1 KiB | Viewed 4070 times ]
Victory Trambus 1960 p.01.jpg
Victory Trambus 1960 p.01.jpg [ 279.68 KiB | Viewed 4070 times ]
Warrior LUF p.02.jpg
Warrior LUF p.02.jpg [ 381.92 KiB | Viewed 4070 times ]
Guy Arab UF 1952 p.06.jpg
Guy Arab UF 1952 p.06.jpg [ 173.42 KiB | Viewed 4070 times ]
Guy Arab LUF 1954 p.11.jpg
Guy Arab LUF 1954 p.11.jpg [ 328.43 KiB | Viewed 4070 times ]
Guy Arab LUF 1954 p.02.jpg
Guy Arab LUF 1954 p.02.jpg [ 361.97 KiB | Viewed 4070 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:41 am 
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Location: Mount Maunganui, New Zealand
The attached Guy brochure, covering all truck and bus models, dates from circa 1969 and shows the Warrior J-Type side-by-side with the Victory Trambus, so the Victory J-Type might have arrived some time after the Warrior J-Type.

Cheers,


Attachments:
Guy Vehicle Range.pdf [621.37 KiB]
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:47 pm 
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Thanks again 9711T.

I think that the Kudu ended at the same time as the Regal VI some time in 1971. Thanks for all the scans too.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:27 pm 
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9711T wrote:
The profile of the Guy Arab LUF chassis followed the same profile as that for the Guy UF. I have attached scans of the pertinent brochure pages for each.

I suspect that the total Arab UF and LUF build was quite small. As far as I know, just two Arab UF chassis made it to Australia, and none to New Zealand. So it was well behind even the Daimler Freeline.


However unlike the Freeline, whose sales in Daimler's core UK municipal market mere dismal, the Arab UF and LUF did reasonably well at home, genearlly in third place in the UFE market.

Big users included Red & White Services and its subsidiary companies, Central and Western SMT and Walter Alexander & Sons, the latter with orders placed prior to its nationalisation, the Scottish group taking orders as late as 1959. Municipals taking UFs and LUFs included Southampton, Leeds and Huddersfield. Leeds interestingly bought CVG6s rather than Arab DDs in the period concerned. Whilst Huddersfield took both, Leeds obviously thought the Freeline was a bad bet. Although East Kent took large numbers of Arab DD's it took no LUFs. Aldershot & District took a single UF, whilst the LUF's main supporter within the BET group was Northern General who took buses, excursion coaches and a special continental tours variant, until BET de-listed Guy as a preferred supplier.

GW Hayter, when he resigned as the Northerrn Group's General Manager took up a directorship with Guy Motors.

State-sector United Automobile Services ended up with one, although the order was from one of the independents that were turned into Durham District Services. Apparently in order to get the frame to marry up with an LS-Style Eastern Coach Works bus body, a flat body-bearer had to be mated with the Guy frame and this was done by Metro-Cammell.
The biggest private sector customer was Lancashire United Transport. The last delivered were four (two Burlingham and two Willowbrook Coaches) for Harper Brothers of Heath Hayes, Staffordshire in 1959.

9711T wrote:
Engine options for the Warrior LUF seem to have varied over time. An undated brochure in my possession shows a choice between the AEC AH470 and the Gardner 5HLW. Possibly the Meadows 4HDC330 had been withdrawn by the time this brochure was published. The Commercial Motor 19560831 introductory article mentioned only the 4HDC330. The Meadows 6HDC500 was the standard fitting on the initial version of the Victory UF.


Now that I did not know, as far as I was aware the few registered in the UK had the Leyland O:680.

9711T wrote:
I am not sure exactly when the Victory Trambus was discontinued in favour of the Victory J-Type. The Warrior J-Type and Warrior J-Type Trambus, both with AEC AV505 engine, were announced in Commercial Motor 19680913. So I should imagine that the Victory J-Type appeared some time after that. Whether it was coincident with the discontinuation of the AEC Kudu and the vertical-engined Worldmaster is unknown. Anyway, the vertical-engined Worldmaster, developed before the Kudu, was largely suppressed in favour of the latter.

Cheers,


I shall see if I can glean any further information from The Leyland Bus Mark 2 when I have a few minutes at home; the chapter on export models was a vital source on my Albion PSV summary of a few weeks ago.

Best Wishes

Stephen Allcroft
Cardross
Scotland


Last edited by Stephen Allcroft on Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:16 pm 
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9711T wrote:
The attached Guy brochure, covering all truck and bus models, dates from circa 1969 and shows the Warrior J-Type side-by-side with the Victory Trambus, so the Victory J-Type might have arrived some time after the Warrior J-Type.

Cheers,


Thanks for this, I concur with your date of 1969 as the Arab V is listed as only available with semi-automatic transmission. The last constant-mesh examples, including the last UK market Guy Bus (Chester 47) entered service that year. Major continuing customer China Motor Bus was by this time taking examples with Daimler built CVG6-style epicyclic gearboxes and rear axles.

The Conquest is illustrated by one of the SNCV buses.

It's fun guessing whose engine they mean for each model.

WRT the Warrior and Trambus I guess the AEC AV505, the Victory seems to be offering Gardner 6HLX and Leyland O:680H power units and a 6LX in the Victory Trambus.

Arab V is only offering the 6LW and 6LX. CMB were taking the latter exclusively by 1969, and they registered the last Arab V's in 1971.

The Conquest seems to be offering the choice of Perkins V8:510, Cummins V6-200 and AEC AV 800 here. Although at the Kelvin Hall show in 1969 when the AV800 engined show chassis (which had previously been displayed in the Netherlands and Belgium as a Conquest) was shown on the Daimler stand as a Roadliner Daimler stated that it was only available with eight-cylinder engines. No more were built with the AV800, the final batch of Roadliners for Pretoria had the larger 291bhp AV810. I think that is a sea-level power rating.

On the Big J range the engines seem to include: 138bhp - Leyland 401, 149bhp - AEC AV505, 150bhp -Gardner 6LX, 173bhp - Leyland O680, 180bhp - Gardner 6LXB, 192bhp -Cummins V6-200, 212bhp - Rolls-Royce Eagle.

Is the 170bhp engine in the cement-mixer J6 and 28 tonne J4T variants an early occurrence of the Leyland 511? It had been announced at the 1968 Earls Court show.


Best Wishes

Stephen Allcroft

Cardross

Scotland


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:56 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:34 am
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Location: Mount Maunganui, New Zealand
Stephen Allcroft wrote:
Is the 170bhp engine in the cement-mixer J6 and 28 tonne J4T variants an early occurrence of the Leyland 511? It had been announced at the 1968 Earls Court show.


Most likely it referred to the 170 hp version of the Cummins VIM V6. As originally used in the Guy Big J range, the VIM was offered with both 170 and 200 hp settings.

Also used was the Cummins NHK 180, quoted at 173 hp.

The Cummins VIM of course was something of a disaster. Apparently its V8 counterpart, the VINE, was quite a bit better without reaching the stellar class. Probably it would have been a better choice than the AEC V8, though.

Cheers,


Attachments:
Guy Big J4t 1967 Engines.jpg
Guy Big J4t 1967 Engines.jpg [ 892.16 KiB | Viewed 4043 times ]
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:59 pm 
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Location: Mount Maunganui, New Zealand
Stephen Allcroft wrote:
However unlike the Freeline, whose sales in Daimler's core UK municipal market mere dismal, the Arab UF and LUF did reasonably well at home, genearlly in third place in the UFE market.


That reverse relativity makes sense. The Guy Arab UF and LUF, which had quite underpowered and very underpowered options, would have appealed much more to UK domestic operators than the Freeline, which with the Daimler engine at least, was adequately powered. Also, the Arab UF had the “partial braking” option in the form of the vacuum triple-servo system (which probably should not have been allowed to escape from the 1930s) as an alternative to the standard air brakes, and surely that would have had a lot of UK operator appeal. Even better, the Arab LUF had vacuum triple servo brakes as standard; its air brake option used the (quite rare, I think) air triple servo system. One wonders whether any such were actually supplied to UK operators.

That the export market demanded adequate power is well illustrated by the Auckland, NZ experience. Auckland Transport Board, ATB (later Auckland Regional Authority, ARA), had a small AEC Regal IV fleet, with 9.6 litre engines. These buses were woefully underpowered, and were consigned to the flat waterfront routes whose curvaceous nature did not demand much in the way of acceleration and speed. The Royal Tiger fleet, with the O.600 engine, was somewhat underpowered, and typically these buses were not found on the longer routes. Still, they were unfussed albeit slow on the hills, and I reckon that with their Saunders Roe Rivaloy bodies and AEC preselector gearboxes, they were probably the best Royal Tigers built. Some lasted until the second half of the 1980s. But it was the Freeline fleet, with the Daimler 10.6 litre engine, that really met Auckland requirements in terms of acceleration and speed on the hills, which is why there was a second order, notwithstanding the known problems with lack of robustness the engine and undercooling. The Freeline was marginally faster than the Leyland Worldmaster with the O.680 engine, as well. North Shore Transport had a solitary Atkinson Alpha with Gardner 6HLW engine and Leyland Pneumocyclic gearbox; I never rode in it, but I understand that it moved at glacial speed.

Cheers,


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:31 am 
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Location: Mount Maunganui, New Zealand
Stephen Allcroft wrote:
I think that the Kudu ended at the same time as the Regal VI some time in 1971.


Thanks. I didn’t realize that the Regal VI lasted until 1971. Previously I was of the impression that it disappeared in one of the early BLMC rationalization sweeps.

But it would make sense that the Regal VI and Kudu exited at the same time, given that the latter was essentially a vertical-engined derivative of the former. Both models had minimal coverage in the British bus literature, with even less for their second, A691-engined iterations, 5U and 3S respectively.

That the Regal VI lasted until 1971 makes me wonder exactly when the 17’6” wheelbase export version of the Reliance (both 6U and 6MU) was withdrawn. Previously I had thought that it might have coincided with the circa 1968 reworking of the short version to have a longer front overhang and to accommodate 10 metre bodies, at least in the UK environment, but it might have been later. Anyway, the export markets that had previously favoured around 33 ft overall length, and for which the 17’6” wheelbase version was designed, had mostly moved in to 36 ft or longer vehicles, so the market would have been declining.

Cheers,


Attachments:
AEC Reliance 691 Export 196608 p.06.jpg
AEC Reliance 691 Export 196608 p.06.jpg [ 1.32 MiB | Viewed 4039 times ]
AEC Reliance 505 UK 196606 p.06.jpg
AEC Reliance 505 UK 196606 p.06.jpg [ 473.78 KiB | Viewed 4039 times ]
AEC Reliance 505 Export 1966 p.06.jpg
AEC Reliance 505 Export 1966 p.06.jpg [ 539.1 KiB | Viewed 4039 times ]
AEC Regal 196608 p.06.jpg
AEC Regal 196608 p.06.jpg [ 357.98 KiB | Viewed 4039 times ]
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:47 am 
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Location: Mount Maunganui, New Zealand
Stephen Allcroft wrote:
Thanks for this, I concur with your date of 1969 as the Arab V is listed as only available with semi-automatic transmission. The last constant-mesh examples, including the last UK market Guy Bus (Chester 47) entered service that year. Major continuing customer China Motor Bus was by this time taking examples with Daimler built CVG6-style epicyclic gearboxes and rear axles.


Had Guy stopped building Wilson gearboxes by this time? It had started in the late 1940s in the Arab Mk III era, and offered a comprehensive range. This included 4-speed, 5-speed overdrive and 5-speed deep 1st preselector variants, each available with either spring or internal air pressure operation. The same three ratio options were offered when it moved to the direct air-operated type circa 1958.

On the other hand in the late1950s Daimler had just the preselector 4-speed and 5-speed deep 1st versions with spring operation only. It added an internally air-pressure operated 4-speed version in 1956, and then a 4-speed direct air-operated model around a year later. I suppose that the troublesome 4-speed unit used in the Fleetline should be considered as a distinct variant. I am not sure when or if Daimler offered its own-build 5-speed direct air-operated version.

For a short while Daimler did offer the Leyland-built 4-speed direct air-operated gearbox, complete with pedestal shift, as an option on the Freeline, but as far as I know, nonesuch were built. Atkinson might have been the only other maker to use the Leyland gearbox and pedestal, and in fact it announced this option fractionally ahead of Leyland’s initial Pneumocyclic announcement.

So if Jaguar wanted to rationalize on one Wilson gearbox range, then Guy looked to be a more logical choice than Daimler. But it appears to have done it the other way around.

Notwithstanding its dalliance with pressure hydraulics, Daimler seemed to have been uninterested in either the preselector version with internal pressure oil operation, or the direct oil-operated version (SCG RV7), both available and tested by LT in the late 1940s. But then one could say that notwithstanding the logic of the RV7 – which was in line with worldwide practice for epicyclic transmissions – the vehicle makers largely avoided it. (Of course the Hydracyclic arrived long after the Wilson gearbox itself had passed its “best-by” date, say around 1960.) The direct air-operated version (SCG RV16) seemed to have had a long gestation period considering that the principle had been applied to the larger railway versions circa 1935. I suspect that was because of the difficulty of squeezing the air operating cylinders, etc., into the smaller road-type units whilst retaining adequate band and clutch clamping pressure and without requiring excessive air pressures. Too high an air pressure promoted air leakage past the piston seals and into the gearbox fluid, this aeration then promoting rapid oxidative thickening of said fluid.

Cheers,


Attachments:
Daimler Freeline Air System p.04.jpg
Daimler Freeline Air System p.04.jpg [ 729.82 KiB | Viewed 4030 times ]
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